I used to get on my high horse about stuff like this, but not any more. That's just more construction jobs for a lot of people who really need them right now. I guess they could have given $115M for low income housing instead, but who am I to judge. Go to the mall, take a fancy vacation, build a kick-a church: spend some money and make merry is my new motto. I for one am glad we have Notre Dame de Paris, Chartres, Canterbury, and all those other gross displays of Christian excess. So a big bravo to Texas, where gospel confidence still holds sway 😉 p.s. And after that article, that kid will probably get a house full of toys given to him as a reward for his sacrificial giving, whereupon he will, as a result, turn into a disgusting little prosperity gospel convert 🙂
It is really difficult to maintain such an expenditure in the face of Jesus' teaching, I agree.
Michael,
I love the great cathedrals as well. As you may know, there was also a great deal of controversy surrounding Abbot Suger and his restoration of St. Denis. There is much to be said in favor of these great structures; however, while I could be wrong, I have a sneaking feeling that First Baptist will not go down as an architectural masterpiece.
How much is too much to spend on a church building? Or is it "wrong" if it's tacky and "right" if it's in good taste? My inability to answer those questions has made me fall back on "judge not, lest…
No one's getting on a high horse here. I think one can call something what it is without judging. I'm not saying I'm better than them. At the end of the day, it's just my opinion.
How much is too much? Maybe a fair question if we're talking about 1 million or 2 million…maybe. But when we have a sum that's more than the GDP of New Zealnd and other entire countries, I'd say we're on pretty solid ground to call this too much.
Dallas price comparison: The new Cowboys Stadium was $1.3 billion. This church is pledged $115 million. God is still getting less than his tithe.
Denominations aside, instead of going to First Baptist Church of Dallas, folks should be checking out the The Village, with three campuses up and down the I-35E DFW corridor. Neo-Evangelical anti-prosperity all-about-the-cross Gospel preaching from Matt Chandler, brain-cancer fighter and the Dane Cook of Christian Preaching. http://www.thevillagechurch.net
Seriously though, displaying God's beauty and abundance through architecture is a worthy gospel cause. (And the economic impact is a worthy consideration as well.) Even in dying Christendom, Cathedrals can serve as outposts for the Church and the Gospel. But how do we actually find the "balance" between that aspect of our mission and the all-encompassing focus of proclaiming the Gospel to a lost world?
Which vesrse was that again… the one about building giant churches to display God's glory? It escapes me.
My guess is that even if you preach the gospel (the actual gospel, not semi-pelagian heresy) from a tent, people will come. Attraction not promotion.
And if you don't manipulate people into giving money (crying 9 year olds giving away their legos) people are going to give abudantly anyway…not only to the church but also within the community, perhaps for a lifetime, which is longer than any constructionn project.
Jerry Jones can do whatever he wants with his money. That's between him and God; the 10% tithe is obsolete.
Jesus said give EVERYTHING away, which neither I nor anyone else is really going to do because I'm as scared and selfish as the next guy, but in that acknowledgement it strangely frees me up to give more, soley by God's grace, than I ever would've to begin with.
I was kidding about the tithe thing. I just thought the bigger-in-Texas numbers were funny.
And you are right, beauty is truly expressed in the Gospel message without regard to the building (or lack of building) which serves as the venue for that preaching.
It's why I don't look down on the storefront churches who buy up closed-down Albertsons, and why I cringe a bit at how much our own church budget is focused on building maintenance.
But beautiful spaces which serve as aides to worship and reflect God's glory are not to be despised. If you've ever been to a good Eastern Orthodox church you know what I'm talking about. A proper understanding of the Incarnation and Resurrection lead us to pour out everything, even in this world which is being recreated into the New Heavens and New Earth. I'm not convinced that FBCD building project is a proper conception of that, but hey. Who knows? Are we getting hints of that from anything but the crying Lego boy and the pricetag? (and yes, the underlying theology of it all…)
What is to be despised, or at least questioned, is when the construction of such things in the name of the Church (buildings, budgets, what have you), and the giving toward such things, comes from anything but the same outpouring spirit of love that God showers upon us. I think we are of one mind there.
The real question in all of this: Will the seatbacks have cupholders for my mocha from the coffeehouse in the narthex? (again, kidding)
I get a little feisty when it comes to these things because i grew up in a church that was similar to FBCD and I know how poisonous it is, beautiful building or not.
And yes, strtegic coffe placement is a must when I'm using my hands to worship ostentatiously or write massive checks! Ha.
Anyone want the over/under on how long it's going to take the kid in the article to hate the church?
I used to get on my high horse about stuff like this, but not any more. That's just more construction jobs for a lot of people who really need them right now. I guess they could have given $115M for low income housing instead, but who am I to judge. Go to the mall, take a fancy vacation, build a kick-a church: spend some money and make merry is my new motto. I for one am glad we have Notre Dame de Paris, Chartres, Canterbury, and all those other gross displays of Christian excess. So a big bravo to Texas, where gospel confidence still holds sway 😉
p.s. And after that article, that kid will probably get a house full of toys given to him as a reward for his sacrificial giving, whereupon he will, as a result, turn into a disgusting little prosperity gospel convert 🙂
Nope. Still ridiculous.
Nate,
It is really difficult to maintain such an expenditure in the face of Jesus' teaching, I agree.
Michael,
I love the great cathedrals as well. As you may know, there was also a great deal of controversy surrounding Abbot Suger and his restoration of St. Denis. There is much to be said in favor of these great structures; however, while I could be wrong, I have a sneaking feeling that First Baptist will not go down as an architectural masterpiece.
How much is too much to spend on a church building? Or is it "wrong" if it's tacky and "right" if it's in good taste? My inability to answer those questions has made me fall back on "judge not, lest…
Cooper,
No one's getting on a high horse here. I think one can call something what it is without judging. I'm not saying I'm better than them. At the end of the day, it's just my opinion.
How much is too much? Maybe a fair question if we're talking about 1 million or 2 million…maybe. But when we have a sum that's more than the GDP of New Zealnd and other entire countries, I'd say we're on pretty solid ground to call this too much.
-Nate
Dallas price comparison: The new Cowboys Stadium was $1.3 billion. This church is pledged $115 million. God is still getting less than his tithe.
Denominations aside, instead of going to First Baptist Church of Dallas, folks should be checking out the The Village, with three campuses up and down the I-35E DFW corridor. Neo-Evangelical anti-prosperity all-about-the-cross Gospel preaching from Matt Chandler, brain-cancer fighter and the Dane Cook of Christian Preaching.
http://www.thevillagechurch.net
Seriously though, displaying God's beauty and abundance through architecture is a worthy gospel cause. (And the economic impact is a worthy consideration as well.) Even in dying Christendom, Cathedrals can serve as outposts for the Church and the Gospel. But how do we actually find the "balance" between that aspect of our mission and the all-encompassing focus of proclaiming the Gospel to a lost world?
Which vesrse was that again… the one about building giant churches to display God's glory? It escapes me.
My guess is that even if you preach the gospel (the actual gospel, not semi-pelagian heresy) from a tent, people will come. Attraction not promotion.
And if you don't manipulate people into giving money (crying 9 year olds giving away their legos) people are going to give abudantly anyway…not only to the church but also within the community, perhaps for a lifetime, which is longer than any constructionn project.
Jerry Jones can do whatever he wants with his money. That's between him and God; the 10% tithe is obsolete.
Jesus said give EVERYTHING away, which neither I nor anyone else is really going to do because I'm as scared and selfish as the next guy, but in that acknowledgement it strangely frees me up to give more, soley by God's grace, than I ever would've to begin with.
NM,
I was kidding about the tithe thing. I just thought the bigger-in-Texas numbers were funny.
And you are right, beauty is truly expressed in the Gospel message without regard to the building (or lack of building) which serves as the venue for that preaching.
It's why I don't look down on the storefront churches who buy up closed-down Albertsons, and why I cringe a bit at how much our own church budget is focused on building maintenance.
But beautiful spaces which serve as aides to worship and reflect God's glory are not to be despised. If you've ever been to a good Eastern Orthodox church you know what I'm talking about. A proper understanding of the Incarnation and Resurrection lead us to pour out everything, even in this world which is being recreated into the New Heavens and New Earth. I'm not convinced that FBCD building project is a proper conception of that, but hey. Who knows? Are we getting hints of that from anything but the crying Lego boy and the pricetag? (and yes, the underlying theology of it all…)
What is to be despised, or at least questioned, is when the construction of such things in the name of the Church (buildings, budgets, what have you), and the giving toward such things, comes from anything but the same outpouring spirit of love that God showers upon us. I think we are of one mind there.
The real question in all of this: Will the seatbacks have cupholders for my mocha from the coffeehouse in the narthex? (again, kidding)
Thanks Mike for the back and forth. Good stuff.
I get a little feisty when it comes to these things because i grew up in a church that was similar to FBCD and I know how poisonous it is, beautiful building or not.
And yes, strtegic coffe placement is a must when I'm using my hands to worship ostentatiously or write massive checks! Ha.