The following quote appeared Wednesday on a tabloid website:
“Exclusive: Self-proclaimed bible thumper Miss California, Carrie Prejean, should start pointing the finger at herself for her own indiscretions. [We have] received exclusive images of the homophobic debutante that would clearly strip her of her Miss California crown. So much for being a good role model for the state of California Carrie. Looks like your photo shoot makes you a sinner too.“
I am not bringing this up because I’m interested in commenting on Miss California per se (I think the media has that covered!). I bring it up because this snippet brilliantly highlights a common misconception in our society today: that Christianity is somehow about being good enough to be a Christian, when it’s actually about understanding that we’re bad enough to really need Christ.
In situations like this, I’m always reminded of two terms. The first is the “universality of sin”, which means exactly what it says: sin is universal, and every human being is a sinner. John says that, if we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives (1John 1:10). Paul is equally clear on this subject, saying, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12). Thus, the answer as to whether or not Miss California is a sinner is of course—as a human being she is in the same sinful boat with the rest of us.
The other term that comes to mind is the “total depravity of man”, which is not what it sounds like. It doesn’t mean that we are so bad that we’re running around doing totally depraved things that would make our mothers blush. Instead, it means that every part of us is affected by sin in some way such that, if we were to examine each and every part of ourselves, we would find no place within us where we could plant the lever that would pry open the gates of heaven. In other words, we can’t save ourselves, because we can’t fix our sin.
Therefore we must look to another, Christ, and him alone for our salvation. Paul tells us, there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:22b-24).
The heart of the matter is that we all wear the label of “sinner” with or without a questionable “photo shoot” in our past. After all, if we could fix sin ourselves, thereby making ourselves good enough to be Christians, then Christ would not have had to die in our place: You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
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51 responses to “Is Miss California Good Enough To Be A Christian?”
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Great post Jeff.
In the New York Post they were talking about how she is a virgin and has breast implants. I am telling you nothing more can articulate simul iustus et pecatur.
St Paul did have something to say about women’s modesty:
1 Timothy 2:9 also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire
Jesus said that those who love me will keep my commandments. If we don’t do what Jesus tells us, then we don’t really love Him. That being said I refrain from judging Ms. Prejean simply because I don’t know if she really recognizes that Jesus would not have her dressing in that fashion in public.
And it’s true that we all sin, and we must all beg pardon for it. The difference between a christian who truly follows Jesus and a christian who is not really a christian, is that one of them repents after they know they have done something wrong and is redeemed from it, and the other does not.
God Bless,
David,
I hear what you’re saying, but I’m also reminded of John 8:7, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
If each of us were to use our own behavior as a litmus test for whether or not we’re good enough for Jesus, we would unfortunately all miss the mark.
The problem with simply saying that those who love Jesus will keep his commandments is that this assumes that we are capable of fulfilling the Law, which clearly we are not.
The problem with simply saying that Ms. Prejean should repent or she’s really not a Christian is that we don’t know what goes on between others and God. Paul tells us in Philipians 2:12 that each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
I agree with your post. We are all sinners, indeed!
Two other very important scriptures that so many overlook, and are requirements for our salvation are found in Mark.
Mark 11:25-“And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespassess”.
Mark 11:26-“But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father, which is in heaven, forgive your trespassess”.
Jesus teaches in Matthew 7:20:
“Wherefore by their fruits you will know them”. Let me encourage you to examine your own fruit to see if it is good.
Believers often carry outward signs of their Christianity in an attempt to share their faith, but what kind of fruit do they/you/me bare? The very first fruit mentioned in Galatians 5:22 is the Spirit of love, and if you have that Spirit of love, you will have the ability given to you by that very same Spirit, to forgive others their trespassess. If you find yourself not being able to forgive, then, you must ask yourself this question: “Do I bare the fruit of love”?
Everyone of us has the dire need to be forgiven and loved, not only by God, but by man, as well.
The real test of having the Spirit of love is the ability to forgive. I ask every reader of this post: Are there any amoung you that needs to forgive, and/or be forgiven?
Mark 11:25 and 26 is imperative to our salvation.
In Response to Anonymous:
On the 4th Petition of Forgiveness in the Lord’s Prayer from Luther’s
Large Catechism-
“Therefore there is here again great need to call upon God and to pray: Dear Father, forgive us our trespasses. Not as though He did not forgive sin without and even before our prayer (for He has given us the Gospel, in which is pure forgiveness before we prayed or ever thought about it). But this is to the intent that we may recognize and accept such forgiveness. For since the flesh in which we daily live is of such a nature that it neither trusts nor believes God, and is ever active in evil lusts and devices, so that we sin daily in word and deed, by commission and omission, by which the conscience is thrown into unrest, so that it is afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, and thus loses the comfort and confidence derived from the Gospel; therefore it is ceaselessly necessary that we run hither and obtain consolation to comfort the conscience again.
But this should serve God’s purpose of breaking our pride and keeping us humble. For in case any one should boast of his godliness and despise others, God has reserved this prerogative to Himself, that the person is to consider himself and place this prayer before his eyes, and he will find that he is no better than others, and that in the presence of God all must lower their plumes, and be glad that they can attain forgiveness. 91] And let no one think that as long as we live here he can reach such a position that he will not need such forgiveness. In short, if God does not forgive without ceasing, we are lost.
It is therefore the intent of this petition that God would not regard our sins and hold up to us what we daily deserve, but would deal graciously with us, and forgive, as He has promised, and thus grant us a joyful and confident conscience to stand before Him in prayer. For where the heart is not in right relation towards God, nor can take such confidence, it will nevermore venture to pray. But such a confident and joyful heart can spring from nothing else than the [certain] knowledge of the forgiveness of sin.”
The Large Catechism bit was my post.
Sorry for any confusion, could not get my ID to work at first.
Matt,
Thanks for sharing that…powerful words from the MAN himself.
Anonymous #1,
I agree with what you’re saying about the need to forgive one another, and that this forgiving of eachother can only be a fruit of the Spirit; both are powerful points.
In reading these quotes from Mark and Mathew, I am also reminded that any forgiveness that derives from our humanity is always imperfect and conditional. The forgiveness which we are called to show one another, that Jesus is surely referring to, is the sharing of God’s forgiveness which has been given to us through Jesus. We who are forgiven are called to share this forgiveness with one another in the Lord’s name on a daily basis.
Dr. Paulson said at this year’s Mockingbird Conference that the forgiveness of sins we receive from God is what makes us good trees, and the sharing of that forgiveness with one another (God’s forgiveness, not ours) is bearing good fruit.
So I agree with what you’re saying, and it’s a powerful point to be sure. I just want to clarify that the forgiveness we are to share with each other is not our forgiveness–it’s the forgiveness that we’ve been given.
This is what is known as the “office of the keys”…having been forgiven, we now possess the key of the freedom of the forgiveness of sins, and we are called to use that key to free others in Chrit’s name.
Sorry, that last line should end with “Christ’s name” not “Chrit’s name”. I’m not a great proofreader.
Jeff you wrote,
“I just want to clarify that the forgiveness we are to share with each other is not our forgiveness–it’s the forgiveness that we’ve been given. This is what is known as the “office of the keys”…having been forgiven, we now possess the key of the freedom of the forgiveness of sins, and we are called to use that key to free others in Christ’s name.”
BAM!!! This is it!! Holy Smokes…Woohoohoo…No you di-hent… Unbelievable…Well done!! 3 snaps a twist and a back flip.
And a Dusty Brown/ Sean Norris Guitar jam on top of that flip 🙂
Matt,
Wow! Thanks!
That, as you know, is not mine…Dr. Paulson deserves all the credit for teaching us that amazing truth at this year’s Mbird Conference.
And Sean and DZ (and the rest of you MB’s), if I haven’t said so already, the MB Conference was not just great, it was AMAZING!
Are Christians sinners or Saints? In Romans 5:6,8 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. . . . But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ died for us.” I note the keyword here, “still”. I can not think of a place in Scripture where a person with a saving faith in the Lord Christ Jesus was called a sinner. No one, who lives in Him, goes on sinning or continues in a lifestyle of sin. In Matthew 13:41“The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.” In Hebrews 10:26 we see that, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
I see as Christians a lot of tolerance toward sin. In working with children, when they are asked what they think sin is, they will sometimes giggle as they mention things that they have done that would be considered sin. This disheartening attitude from children about sin, is seen much more often now than ever before. I’m not talking about Godless homes either. These would be considered Christian homes by most Christian’s standards. I say Chrisitan’s standards, because I don’t know that they would stand up to God’s standards at all. I think we are seeing a watered down version of the seriousness of sin happening in Christian homes across America. This translates into young adults not looking like Christians in the decisions they make.
I have heard quite a few people coin this phrase, “I’m just a sinner saved by grace”, when in truth shouldn’t we be saying, “I was a sinner, but have been saved by grace through faith.”? True followers of the Lord Jesus are obedient to his teachings and commands and do the will of God their father. Does this mean they no longer sin? Of course people still sin. But, does it mean that they live in a lifestyle of it? I don’t think so. If a person is truly a regenerated, justified Christian and believed on Christ’s work on the cross, don’t they look and act differently? They now have the Holy Spirit to guide and direct their lives, not just living by their own thoughts and ideas. In short, they should look different.
I think what happens from here with Miss Prejean will say a lot about her faith in Christ. If she didn’t know before that there was a problem with her lifestyle, she does now. My prayer is that if she is the Christian she proclaims to be, she will see that what she has chosen as a vocation doesn’t line up with God’s Word and will choose a path in her life that will glorify God. Non-beleivers will see the difference. She has a wonderful opportunity here to give a great message about salvation to a lost world, and an entire nation seems to be watching.
Jeff, in answer to your comment, which you stated: “This is what is known as the “office of the keys”…having been forgiven, we now possess the key of the freedom of the forgiveness of sins, and we are called to use that key to free others in Chrit’s name”.
Yes! We are called to free others in Christ’s name by using that key to forgive them of any trespassess against us. So, therefore, I ask again, is there any amoung us that needs to use that key to forgive someone/anyone? In so doing, we free them of any and all guilt of their wrong doing against us, therefore, releasing them to feel loved again not only by mankind, but by the one they offended, as well.
Again, Mark 11:26 states that we must forgive in order for our Father to forgive us of our very own trespassess.
We seek forgiveness from our God, and how wonderful and free we feel when we know He grants that forgiveness. So, how much more important it is to let our offenders know that, they too, have been forgiven by us. This is why Mark 11:26 is so important and a requirement to our salvation. Forgiveness is powerful, indeed!
May 8, 2009 11:32 AM
In his grip,
You’ve made some very good points, and I by and large agree with you.
Just a few thoughts.
First, you say that you can not think of a place in Scripture where a person with a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ was called a sinner. Paul says in Romans 8:9-11, “But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.”
Paul is saying that even though we are regenerated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we still wrestle with a sinful body, “sarx” or in the original Greek, or “flesh”. Sarx takes into account every part of our being, our thoughts, words, actions, desires etc. Although we are regnerate, we are not freed from our flesh. That freedom will not come until the last day, when we receive our resurrected bodies. Until then, we will continue to have sinful desires and to wrestle with sin.
That’s why Paul goes on at the end of Romans 8:12-14 to exhort his readers to self mortification, ie., putting to death the misdeeds of the body. This is an unpopular subject in modern Christianity, but something that we must practice daily.
That said, we must not lose sight of how Paul begins his discussion in Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Even though we are still in sinful bodies, and we must wrestle with self-mortification (and fail miserably at it quite often, I’m afraid), there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Regarding teenagers, I agree wholeheartedly that most of them are being fed a very shallow view of Christian faith, both at home and in many churches. Youth directors are not teaching the faith, they are not catchizing our young people. Most highschoolers hold a view of God has been called “rational therapeutic diesm”, meaning, there is a God, he wants to help me, I will do what I can on my own, but when I can’t manage something that I want or need, God will help me with that.
If I’m a teenager today, and that’s who God is to me, then of course I’m going to a low importance on sin, because I have a low view of what happened at the cross. Conversely, if I have a high view of sin and my inability to do anything to save myself, then the Cross becomes a total rescue that I didn’t want, and certainly didn’t deserve, and he did it anyway.
My concern with the idea that once we’re regenerated we can turn from our sinful lives is that such an idea leans towards “pelagianism”, which is the heresy of salvation by self control. The problem is that I can’t control myself. Until I am fully resurrected, I will still be at war with my flesh, and it’s a war that I will inevitably lose. Where I win is in the fact that, when I stand before the judgment seat, all God will see in me is Christ.
Anonymous,
I think we’re actually on the same wavelength. I agree wholeheartedly with you that the place to start applying this office of the keys is with those near you have offended you! Dr. Paulson said that where we have to start excercising this forgiveness is in our marriages and interpersonal relationships.
Furthermore, I would say that ALL of us need to use this office to forgive someone/anyone. That’s part of what makes forgiveness so powerful: the universal need for it and the relative absence of it in our human relationships (apart from God working it through us).
How different the world would be if we applied this at home and with those who have directly offend us.
Thanks for coming back and commenting, and I agree, Forgiveness is powerful indeed!
Clarification regarding my response to In His Grip, above:
“Youth directors are not teaching the faith”, should read “Many youth directors are not teaching the faith”.
My sincerest apologies to capable and hardworking youth directors everywhere.
By His Grip
All one can say is 1John 1:8
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Matt,
Perfect, and much more succinct than my response. Thanks!
In saying this Jeff:
“My concern with the idea that once we’re regenerated we can turn from our sinful lives is that such an idea leans towards “pelagianism”, which is the heresy of salvation by self control.” I am getting the impression that you think I mean something that I’m not saying, so I will clarify by saying it a different way.
I will got to Titus 2:22-14 to clarify my point. It says “The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope— the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.”
The grace of God brings the forgiveness of sins and also the grace of sanctification and an eagerness to do what is right. As I said, I am not saying that a Christian will never sin, but I am saying that because they are a Christian and now have aid of the Holy Spirit, they will not want to continue down the same path that they would as a non-believer. Otherwise, what is the difference.
“The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope— the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.”
I see a lack of eagerness to do what is good in a lot of people that call themselves “Christians” today. I did not intend to sound pelagianistic. There is a big push in churches today to just change behaviors and all will be well, without getting to the soul of the issue. I just believe that once you are a Christian and have accepted God’s free gift of grace given at the cross, there should be santification that is continually taking place.
In His Grip,
I definately agree with you that the indwelling Holy Spirit leads us into a new life and a new understanding in Christ. Amen to that!
That’s the difference between us trying to perfectly follow the Law on our own merits and fulfilling the “just requirement” of the Law by the power of the Holy Spirit.
My point is just that although we will continue to grow in the love and knowledge of God by the power of the Holy Spirit, there will still be times when we look back over our shoulders and give in to the desires of flesh.
That said, when we sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
I also agree 100% as to the big push in churches today to just change behaviors. It sets us back in a place of works righteousness, inferring that if we will modify our behaviors, then God will bless our efforts, when it’s clearly the other way around: without God’s blessing us, ie, through justification and the Holy Spirit, then we have no hope of fulfilling the righteous requirement of the Law.
Thanks, Jeff.
Forgiveness of one another is not only powerful, but a requirement from our Father.
And anonymous,
This requirement has been fulfilled by Christ on the cross, since no one forgives perfectly.
Anonymous and Matt,
I think if we combine both of your thoughts we get the complete truth:
“Forgiveness of one another is not only powerful, but a requirement from our Father,” and “This requirement has been fulfilled by Christ on the cross, since no one forgives perfectly.”
What do you guys think?
From the Lord’s Pray–Matthew 6:12″And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Just after the Lord’s Prayer, in Matthew 6:14, Jesus teaches on forgiveness by saying: “For if you forgive men their trespassess, your heavenly Father will also forgive you”. Matthew 6:15: “But if you forgive not men their trespassess, neither will your Father forgive your trespassess”.
As I stated in my previous post, Mark 11:26 enunciates the same thing.
Part of Luke 6:37 states: “Forgive and you shall be forgiven”.
Matthew 18:21: “Peter came to Jesus and ask, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?’ “Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.'”
We are to clothe ourselves with the character of Jesus Christ meaning that we are to be long-suffering, patient, not easily offended, slow to anger, quick to forgive, and filled with mercy. We are to forgive in order to keep Satan from having the advantage over us. Unforgiveness is Satan’s character, not Christ’s at all. It is God’s requirement for us to be like Him, not like Satan, thus, we must forgive to be like Jesus and to take on His character.
Unforgiveness opens the doorway for Satan to destroy lives, break families apart, destroy marriages, homes, and he uses us to do it because we follow our emotions and our fleshly ways of harboring bitterness, grudges, and hate instead of walking in the Spirit of forgiveness and love.
Unforgiveness hinders our prayers, and the evil one knows that. He goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may destroy, seeking those who do not walk in love. Jesus knows how important it is to forgive because it unleashes Satan’s hold on us, therefore, allowing room for our Father to work and to heal our hurts and pain, thus allowing us to forgive others. God, in his infinite wisdom, knows how very important it is for us to forgive our brothers and sisters, our families, our husbands and wives, and the like.
Yes, Matt, the requirement was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, but, we must walk in it daily, lest we put Christ to shame. And surely it’s required for us to forgive, else, why is it mentioned so many times in His word?
I agree with Jeff, by putting the two together, the truth is complete. Now, lets set about forgiving those who have tresspassed against us, hurt us, offended us, lied on us, etc., so our Father can go about His business of working in our lives and drawing us closer to each other.
Anonymous,
No one is disagreeing that Christ demands it, we are proclaiming that Christ
a. has fulfilled the demand and
b. “will work” and “is working” all of these things through sinners by the Holy Spirit.
What is implied in your argument is that you can now, by merit of your faculties, choose properly. For example “but, we must walk in it daily, lest we put Christ to shame.” Well I would rephrase your statement to say, “but, The Holy Spirit walks saved sinners in it daily, and Christ will never be put to shame.”
I suppose the bottom line is Christians are free of having to worry about whether to turn to the left or the right, because Christ is now driving the ship…even in their sanctification.
You write
“Now, lets set about forgiving those who have trespassed against us,”
No..no Christian needs “to plan” or “set about” to forgive…chill…the HS is working that out in the life of the Christian.
It’s a slow ride, take it easy.
Not All is Gold That Glitters: Getting Pseudo-Christians Out Of Their Prejeans
Strong Tower,
If you have something to say about the content of this article, then please say it in your comment, and refrain from posting a link to your own article, which is clearly political in nature. That’s not helpful, and it is not the purpose of my article.
Thank you.
Matt,
This has never been an argument, just a discussion, my friend.
I will do more studing on the subject.
Forgiveness of our brother’s and sister’s in Christ, and those we have hurt and vice versa brings about love and peace in our lives. Not only that, but look at the wounded hearts, marriages and families that, “love can build a bridge over” if only we can openly forgive our trasgressers. Surely, it is the will of our Father to do so.
I will do more studying on the subject.
Blessings
Matt,
Very well said. That IS the point I was trying to make in combining the two statements.
Anonymous,
You’re on the right track. Matt’s point is that we should and must forgive, but we are incapable of real forgiveness without the guidance provided by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And I think that’s essentially the same track you’re taking.
Please don’t get me wrong…I agree that we MUST forgive eachother…that is VERY important! But I also agree with Matt that such forgiveness can come ONLY as a fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us. What do you think? Is this a reasonable summation?
I bring it up because this snippet brilliantly highlights a common misconception in our society today: that Christianity is somehow about being good enough to be a Christian, when it’s actually about understanding that we’re bad enough to really need Christ.This is what caught my eye. It is of a sorts the theme of my post and why I wrote it. Far from being a political piece, it is actually about the Gospel and why it is that the world and much of evangelicalism remains confused about it. The post is associated with one at another site which brings out the hyporcrisy angle a bit differently than the shallow view expressed by “So much for being a good role model for the state of California Carrie. Looks like your photo shoot makes you a sinner too.”
If it is forgiveness that is the real issue, if her defenders or her attackers are correct and it is just about sins of greater or lesser values or works in otherwords, if Miss California represents Christianity, then the world is right, what authority do Christians have to say anything more than the world about what is right or wrong and Christianity becomes just another elitist sectarian movement.
Your closing volley succinctly sums up the problem: “The heart of the matter is that we all wear the label of “sinner” with or without a questionable “photo shoot” in our past. After all, if we could fix sin ourselves, thereby making ourselves good enough to be Christians, then Christ would not have had to die in our place…”
In deed, this is the message the world needs to here. Unfortunately it didn’t hear it from her. What they heard was the same message they themselves spout.
Good day,
tt
God bless
If Christians like Carrie Prejean are considered homophobic for belief in heterosexual marriage, Then wouldn’t those who defend homosexual marriage be considered heterophobic? Lets be honest saying someone who disagrees with being homosexual is homophobic is a clear case of fear mongering. Great blog btw…
Strong Tower,
I’m sorry I midunderstood your intent…my sincerest apologies.
Your points are well taken.
In Christ,
Jeff
Brian,
I gree that the term homophobic is being thrown around guite a lot where Miss Prejean is concerned, and I don’t ever remember her saying she is afraid of homosexuals. You make an interesting point.
What got my attention last week was the media attacking her as being a sinner because of a questionable photo shoot, when truth be told, she is a sinner with or without that photo, just like the rest of us.
Glad you like the blog!
Carrie is a perfect role model for Christian women because she stood her ground and isn’t perfect. For those who don’t have any skeletons (or pictures) in their closets, great…count that a blessing. However, for those who have less than a perfect image but God uses them for a season or many seasons…consider yourself blessed as well.
Check out my post for additional thoughts: http://richardtgarner.blogspot.com/2009/04/taking-pleasure-in-persecution.html
Rick,
I appreciate your comments, and I read the article on your blog.
I hear what you’re saying about Ms. Prejean’s witness, what she has stood for, and whether or not she is a good role model.
That said, I would like to avoid taking the conversation in that direction (other blogs have that well covered!), and rather stick to the subject of the article, which is that all of us have skeletons (sins) in our closets, none of us has the power in and of ourselves to fix sin, the only one who can do anything to save us is Christ, and he has already accomplished the one thing that saves us…the Cross.
Thank you, Jeff, for your imput here–“Don’t get me wrong…I agree that we MUST forgive eachother…that is VERY important! But I also agree with Matt that such forgiveness can come ONLY as a fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us. What do you think? Is this a reasonable summation”?
I do agree that the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us is a must for true forgiveness, and if some part of us cannot forgive someone that has hurt/wronged us, then, we are lacking in the Holy Spirit, and that element of Him within us that gives us the power to forgive, more so, if someone has ask for forgiveness and we withold it, and if we withold forgiveness, that only proves that we are lacking the fruit and need more of the Holy Spirit working within us.
Anonymous,
Well put, I would only direct your attention to one thing, that the Holy Spirit dwells within each of us who are in Christ, we all receive the same “measure” of the Holy Spirit, and we all receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of our justification, ie., our moment of faith in Christ crucified for our sins.
This is from Romans 8: 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The problem is not whether or not we have enough of the Holy Spirit, it’s a matter of giving ourselves over to the work of the Spirit. Even in our regenerated state through the indwelling Spirit, the flesh still resists in some ways and at some times. And I think that’s where lack of forgiveness comes from.
You are definately on the right track!
She gets to keep her Crown!!! Yea Jesus!!!
Jeff,
I agree with what you said; it makes more sense to me, now.
Could you please tell me if there is someone that you can’t forgive,(I’m dealing with this issue) what do you do?
Michael Cooper,
I don’t understand your comment, nor do I understand what how it in any way relates to the article. Would you care to explain?
Thanks!
Anonymous,
I can start by telling you that you are not alone. I have been in a situation in my own life in which forgiveness of another took an extremely long time. If you don’t mind, I’d like to share with you a little of my own experience.
Forgiveness is not something that can be forced, and it often takes time to evolve. In my own situation, I thought that there would never be a time at which I could forgive this person, yet over time and through the work of the Holy Spirit forgiveness came about. But it was not sudden, and it was not something that I could do on my own.
A good starting place is to forgive that person “in Jesus’ name”. Start there, with the Office of the Keys (the office of the forgiveness of sins), because God’s forgiveness is always perfect, ours is not, and God can always cover what we are incapable of doing if we call on him in our time of need.
Start with that, in the privacy of your prayers, and see what evolves. I know that’s not a perfect answer, but it is something that has worked for me, and I will pray that it works for you, too.
May God bless you!
Jeff, Michael was referring to the controversy over whether Prejean could keep her crown due to her topless photos. The pageant has a rule against that kind of stuff. But Donald Trump (who owns the pageant or something–no comment!) forgave her indescretion and let her keep her title.
Aaron,
How’s it going? I really liked your U2 article and am looking forward to installment 2.
Michael,
What I meant was, I know she gets to keep her crown, but could you elaborate on the “yea Jesus”? I’m just curious what you meant. Thanks.
Jeff,
Thank you so much. I am working on that, but forgiveness is hard.
When I reach that point of forgiveness, should I tell the person? This person has ask for forgiveness and I know is very sad that I have not forgiven her, and needs the “release” that forgiveness brings. Should we let people know that they are forgiven?
If I may ask, were you able to, or have you let “your” person know that you have forgiven her/him?
Thank you. I really enjoy conversing with you, it brings me peace somehow.
Jeff–Sorry I didn’t respond to your question earlier, I had “moved on” from this post and didn’t see it. The “Yea Jesus” comment was meant ironically. It may be “grace” in a very superficial sense to let her keep her crown, but the analogy for me would be if Jesus helped St. Paul to become a successful Chippendale dancer, and then forgave him for some lap dance indiscretions, so that he could keep his job. Beauty pageants are a Pharisaical venture, it is pure judgment and works “righteousness” that earns the crown.
My sympathy with Prejean is that, even though she totally bought into this world, God called to her within it with the curve ball “gay marriage” question, and by His grace, she responded. This was a huge blessing for her, because she then experienced, probably for the first time, real persecution for her faith. She was chasing a beauty crown, but God blessed her with a crown of thorns.
Michael,
That’s a brilliant point. Very well said. Thanks for coming back and explaining.
Jeff
Jeff,
Could you respond to my last post?
When I am able to forgive, should I let her know? When you were able to forgive, did you let the person know?
Thanks so much.
Jeff,
I just signed up for this blog, and was reading all the posts. I’m curious about what you said on May 8th, “any forgiveness that derives from our humanity is always imperfect and conditional.” What exactly do you mean by “conditional”? Does that mean that we can pick and choose whom we forgive and/or which transgressions we forgive, or does it mean we are to forgive only under certain “conditions”?
P,
What I meant by that comment is that “our forgiveness” as opposed to “God’s forgiveness” is always imperfect and conditional, because whenever we forgive someone who has wronged us, whether consciously or subconsciously we always give that forgiveness on the condition that such forgiveness not be misused, and if it is misused, we tend to revoke our forgiveness.
Such is not the case with God’s forgiveness. When we forgive eachother in Jesus’ name, that forgiveness is always perfect, and as those who have been forgiven in Jesus name, we are to share that forgiveness with others.
I hope this little explanation helps. If you would like more information on the subject, please consider downloading Dr. Paulson’s first talk from the Mockingbird Conference 2009, the Friday morning session, which deals specifically and entirely with this issue. It is definately worth your time. I have found his insights most helpful.
Jeff,
What do you mean by, “we are to share that forgiveness with others?” Can you give me an example?